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Audible Mike Lindstrom was boarding a plane to head back from a family event this past summer. When he plopped down, little did he know that he was sitting next to an accomplished doctor with more letters after her name than you can shake a stick at.
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal MD PhD MPH isn't your typical psychiatrist. She studied the neuroscience of mindfulness meditation now runs a private practice that treats the whole person. Psychological. Biological. Spiritual. She says medications can help, but they are never the full answer.
In this episode she explains why so many people keep looking outside themselves for the fix and why that approach keeps them stuck. She walks through how she helps patients build an internal place they can return to when life gets hard. She shares the exact practice she uses before hard days. She talks about becoming a mother while holding other people’s pain. And she gives the simple daily steps that actually move people toward a life that feels like theirs.
If you've been vibrating at the wrong frequency or needed a nudge to spend a few minutes in meditation, this episode is for you.
Topics Covered
- How a chance plane ticket turned into this conversation
- Why 17-plus years of schooling forced her to find meaning inside herself
- The difference between treating symptoms and creating a life of real alignment
- What most people get wrong about psychiatric medication
- The heart-centered practice that works when traditional meditation feels impossible
- How she protects herself from absorbing patient pain after becoming a parent
- Telehealth versus in-person and how she decides
- Addiction, the 12 steps, and why peer support matters
- The advice she gives clients that she still struggles to take herself
- Three practical things anyone can start doing today
Chapters
- 00:00 Crisis resources and intro
- 02:08 Welcome and how Mike met Dr. Adler-Neal on a plane
- 03:56 What’s your story? Ballet dancer or doctor?
- 05:30 Building an internal locus of meaning during the PhD years
- 07:06 17 and a half years of advanced schooling
- 08:35 Why psychiatry and the gift of having a place to return to
- 09:49 Growth potential instead of “everyone is broken”
- 11:34 Blending Eastern and Western approaches without fighting
- 12:28 Heart-centered compassion when the mind won’t quiet
- 14:14 Isolation, connection, and what people struggle with most
- 15:20 “Invite it in for tea”
- 16:28 Holding patient pain without carrying it home
- 18:20 The mentor and the book that redirected her entire path
- 20:20 Motherhood and switching from doctor to mom
- 21:40 Telehealth effectiveness and when in-person is needed
- 23:24 Addiction work and the power of the 12 steps
- 24:29 The advice she gives that she doesn’t always take
- 25:00 What pop culture gets wrong about psychiatric medication
- 26:32 Medications are not a quick fix and nothing external is the answer
- 27:14 Stabilization first. Getting people to zero so real work can begin
- 29:29 Three everyday practices for staying grounded
- 30:50 Purpose, social media comparison, and protecting kids’ brains
- 33:40 Adrienneisms and “invite it in for tea”
- 34:20 Herbalism potions and learning to play bad golf
- 35:28 Closing and thank you
Episode Links
- Dr. Adler-Neal's website: https://www.adlerneal.com
- US Crisis Hotline: https://988lifeline.org.
If you or someone you know needs support, call or text the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. It is free, confidential, and available 24/7.
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Websites
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Speaker:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: it's not a quick fix.
Speaker:
That is what I work with people so much on is we're really looking
Speaker:
at, your psychological, your biological, your spiritual health.
Speaker:
And medications might be a part of that, but they're not a way to
Speaker:
bypass the rest of the work, right?
Speaker:
If we're using them, we also need to be looking at everything
Speaker:
else going on in the picture.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And I think so often the thing that people
Mike Lindstrom:
are getting right is that, maybe some doctors, people are looking
Mike Lindstrom:
for this to be the answer, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
And to me, that gets at our culture of "the answer is outside of me."
Mike Lindstrom:
, "Let me get this medication, this doctor, this modality, this spiritual
Mike Lindstrom:
practice, all these things, and then I'll be fine and whole," when really,
Mike Lindstrom:
nothing external is the answer.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Fix everything except the thing that matters.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Right,
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
That's powerful.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Right, except sit in silence.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
[laughing]
Scott Leese:
Intro Band: Lean in closer. This is your time.
Scott Leese:
Hit record on your crooked
Scott Leese:
life. What's your story?
Scott Leese:
(Hey!) Say the words out loud!
Scott Leese:
Mike & Scott gonna crack that crowd.
Scott Leese:
What's your story? (Hey!) Turn it up, let's go!
Scott Leese:
Every voice. Every scar.
Scott Leese:
Every road. What's your story?
Scott Leese:
Mike and Scott.
Scott Leese:
Let's talk.
Robert McLaws:
This episode covers a wide array of mental health issues.
Robert McLaws:
Everyone needs help once in a while.
Robert McLaws:
If you or someone you know needs support, call or text the US Crisis
Robert McLaws:
Lifeline at 988 or visit 988lifeline.org.
Robert McLaws:
It's twenty four seven, free, and confidential.
Mike Lindstrom:
Welcome back everybody.
Mike Lindstrom:
Mike Lindstrom, my man Scott Lease, what's your story?
Mike Lindstrom:
Man, here we go.
Mike Lindstrom:
we're taking things always to another level.
Mike Lindstrom:
You get a sheriff on, and then you get a doctor, a multi-doctor.
Mike Lindstrom:
We're talking about a MD, PhD, MPH. I don't even know if you knew what MPH is.
Mike Lindstrom:
I didn't.
Scott Leese:
I had to ask.
Mike Lindstrom:
Had to ask.
Scott Leese:
I'm embarrassed to admit.
Mike Lindstrom:
but that's okay.
Mike Lindstrom:
We're talking about a lot of education here, man.
Mike Lindstrom:
I though college and law school, seven years was enough.
Mike Lindstrom:
but I have to tell a quick story before we get into this.
Mike Lindstrom:
Do you know how I met Dr. Adler-Neal?
Scott Leese:
Is she your doctor?
Mike Lindstrom:
No.
Mike Lindstrom:
I met her on an airplane.
Scott Leese:
Really?
Mike Lindstrom:
I met her on an airplane.
Mike Lindstrom:
Coming back in the summertime from family reunion, had a big family reunion.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think I told you about that.
Mike Lindstrom:
My dad had hosted.
Mike Lindstrom:
Coming from Sacramento, California.
Mike Lindstrom:
Remember I was taking all those pictures?
Scott Leese:
Sure, sure.
Mike Lindstrom:
On what freeway?
Scott Leese:
99.
Mike Lindstrom:
Which is?
Mike Lindstrom:
The name of our company?
Scott Leese:
Highway 99.
Mike Lindstrom:
highway 99 Media.
Mike Lindstrom:
So we were coming back from the 916 and this amazing person sitting next
Mike Lindstrom:
to me, we all talk about vibrations.
Scott Leese:
Literally sitting next to you on the plane.
Mike Lindstrom:
We're sitting there.
Mike Lindstrom:
We're on the plane.
Mike Lindstrom:
We're on the plane.
Scott Leese:
Wow.
Mike Lindstrom:
Didn't know this person from anybody.
Mike Lindstrom:
Started chatting each other because the, her vibrations were high.
Mike Lindstrom:
As Ian would say, or Dave Skachard would say her vibrations were
Mike Lindstrom:
high and you felt this energy.
Mike Lindstrom:
Hopefully she felt it back and it was not in that kind of way.
Mike Lindstrom:
It was like, "Hey, there's two people that need to connect."
Mike Lindstrom:
And I said, "You're not gonna believe this." So at the end, I said,
Mike Lindstrom:
"We should have you on our show."
Scott Leese:
Wow.
Mike Lindstrom:
So little did I know, this person lives, not too far away and
Mike Lindstrom:
drove all the way in to see us today.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal, thank you for coming on.
Mike Lindstrom:
Did I get that story right?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes, you did.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
I mean, what, was it the vibrations?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Like what was it just so we had to?
Mike Lindstrom:
Like what was the story there?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: It was just, it was what was meant to be.
Mike Lindstrom:
Surrender.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah, it just happened.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
It's a good thing you were on that plane because I just
Scott Leese:
fall asleep when I go on the airplane.
Scott Leese:
I put my headphones on, I pass.
Scott Leese:
I try not to talk to anybody.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
He's private on the airplane.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
I usually am, but there's times where I wanna talk to people.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
And we did talk, so I appreciate that.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes.
Scott Leese:
Very cool.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I'm so glad.
Scott Leese:
I did not know that.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yep.
Mike Lindstrom:
that's a fact.
Mike Lindstrom:
So tell us what's your story and then we're gonna get into all the good stuff.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Great.
Mike Lindstrom:
Well, thank you so much for having me.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Growing up, I always knew I wanted to be
Mike Lindstrom:
either a ballet dancer or a doctor.
Mike Lindstrom:
So ultimately, obviously decided doctor.
Mike Lindstrom:
And it's post-college.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm working in this lab.
Mike Lindstrom:
The principal investigator comes up to me one day and he says, "Adrienne, why
Mike Lindstrom:
are you just applying to medical school?
Mike Lindstrom:
Why aren't you applying to an MD / PhD program?
Mike Lindstrom:
Like you clearly love research." I was like, "I don't, I don't know.
Mike Lindstrom:
I mean, that seems like really long, eight years.
Mike Lindstrom:
Like I don't know anybody who's done it."
Mike Lindstrom:
And he said, "Listen, you want your career to peak the day before you retire.
Mike Lindstrom:
You wanna build and build and build a career that is just
Mike Lindstrom:
so wonderful and enjoyable.
Mike Lindstrom:
You love it so much.
Mike Lindstrom:
The most interesting day is the day before you retire." And I though, okay, well, on
Mike Lindstrom:
a whim, applied to an MD / PhD program, decide, changed all of my applications
Mike Lindstrom:
that night to MD / PhD, wrote my essay.
Mike Lindstrom:
As luck would have it, got into Wake Forest MD / PhD program.
Mike Lindstrom:
So it's an eight year program.
Mike Lindstrom:
You do two years of medical school, four years of the PhD, and then the
Mike Lindstrom:
last two years of medical school.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I'm in the four year PhD. And all of those external pillars that you
Mike Lindstrom:
use to mark your success, to give you a compass, start to fall away.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm spending a week on one line of code for image processing while all of my
Mike Lindstrom:
peers, they graduate med school, they do residency, they're becoming doctors.
Mike Lindstrom:
and I realized I'm really gonna have to figure out my internal
Mike Lindstrom:
space, the place that I can return to, that gives me meaning even
Mike Lindstrom:
when external factors are changing.
Mike Lindstrom:
So in the lab by day, I'm studying the neuroscience of mindfulness meditation.
Mike Lindstrom:
And at night and on the weekends, I'm meditating, I'm doing yoga, I'm reading
Mike Lindstrom:
everything I can get my hands on about Eastern philosophy, contemplative
Mike Lindstrom:
Christianity, and I'm really forming for myself this internal locus of
Mike Lindstrom:
meaning to which I can return even when things are getting really challenging.
Mike Lindstrom:
So fast-forward, I graduate the MD/PhD, I do my psychiatry residency, and now
Mike Lindstrom:
I formed a psychiatric private practice where this is what I help people do.
Mike Lindstrom:
Obviously, I do the medications, I do the psychotherapy, the integrative medicine,
Mike Lindstrom:
the functional medicine, but it's all within that context of helping them
Mike Lindstrom:
create meaning for themselves and their lives and how to create a life of real
Mike Lindstrom:
authenticity and alignment that fits into their overarching worldview of what they
Mike Lindstrom:
think is happening here on planet Earth.
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: Do you think that's abnormal in your
Mike Lindstrom:
space, generally speaking?
Mike Lindstrom:
number one The credentials and how many people do that in the world?
Mike Lindstrom:
Probably not very many, and you've taken it to the next level, that's given.
Mike Lindstrom:
But in the practice, like you "mano y mano" with the client.
Mike Lindstrom:
There's the- the traditional psych method.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
There's the medication method, but you're
Mike Lindstrom:
talking about bridging the gap.
Mike Lindstrom:
And you're talking about a holistic approach.
Mike Lindstrom:
You're not just trying to get back to the roots and get on the couch,
Mike Lindstrom:
but really take them to a new place.
Mike Lindstrom:
Do you find in this modern day in what you do, that's abnormal?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah, I definitely hear that it's abnormal from
Mike Lindstrom:
the patients and clients that I work with.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think so oftentimes people get stuck in therapy where they're just,
Mike Lindstrom:
they're focusing on the traumas, the limiting beliefs, and they're
Mike Lindstrom:
not really learning how to bring that into change in their lives.
Mike Lindstrom:
And in my model, that's really what I'm keeping my eye on, even
Mike Lindstrom:
when we're doing the therapy, the medications, all the other things.
Mike Lindstrom:
It's what do you really think is happening on planet earth?
Mike Lindstrom:
And how are you grounding in that daily, putting your healing work in that context,
Mike Lindstrom:
and then crafting values and a life that really moves in that direction?
Mike Lindstrom:
There is a conversation now about the absence of disease is not health.
Mike Lindstrom:
Like the absence of death is not life, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
And I think that's really what I try to work people on, is really creating
Mike Lindstrom:
that life of meaning and purpose.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
You were in school for 12 years?
Scott Leese:
Four-year undergraduate.
Scott Leese:
Eight years of advanced
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes.
Scott Leese:
…study?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And then also a year and a half of
Scott Leese:
the Master's in Public Health.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
13 and a half years.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
And then a four-year psychiatry residency.
Mike Lindstrom:
How's that possible?
Mike Lindstrom:
She looks 21.
Scott Leese:
17 and a half years!
Mike Lindstrom:
She's 21, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
Look a her.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
17 and a half years of advanced schooling.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes, I guess.
Scott Leese:
My goodness.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: That would be.
Scott Leese:
Yep.
Scott Leese:
I have to ask this question.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Because I only know a couple other people that have
Scott Leese:
even a fraction of the advanced schooling and degrees that you have.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
And they are buried in school debt.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Mm.
Scott Leese:
How does one actually accomplish paying for
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: uh-huh.
Scott Leese:
17 and a half years of advanced schooling?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
So the MD / PhD, there's only two people, at least when I was doing it,
Scott Leese:
that were in it because they paid you.
Scott Leese:
They paid for your medical school, they paid for your PhD, and you got a stipend.
Scott Leese:
They paid for a private medical school for me.
Scott Leese:
so all of that was free.
Scott Leese:
And I was very blessed and luckily enough to have
Scott Leese:
- Mike Lindstrom: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: …parents who paid for my undergraduate.
Scott Leese:
So
Scott Leese:
- Mike Lindstrom: That's great.
Scott Leese:
Wow.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yep.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Yeah, because I can imagine, Not only are you eliminating prime earning years
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes, that's true.
Scott Leese:
You're going into debt
Scott Leese:
- Mike Lindstrom: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
…while doing them.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
This one guy that I'm thinking of, he's a friend of mine.
Mike Lindstrom:
He's like still paying off his student debt.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
And he makes really good money.
Scott Leese:
And I'm like, "How, you're still in debt?" He's like, "Yeah
Scott Leese:
-" Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
"…you have no idea how much this stuff costs."
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
That's why I felt so lucky.
Scott Leese:
Like the MD / PhD, it's eight years, but they pay for it.
Scott Leese:
You get paid to do it.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: So you really are freed up to do
Scott Leese:
whatever you want afterwards.
Scott Leese:
Have you heard the phrase that the people that go into psychiatry
Scott Leese:
and psychology are the people who are just trying to figure themselves out?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Mm, I have heard that.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Well, how do you respond when people
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
…say that to you?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I think there's so many ways to go with that.
Scott Leese:
I think for me, I realized during those four years of the PhD how important
Scott Leese:
it was to have my own internal place.
Scott Leese:
I got the biggest gift of my life in those four years was that I knew that I have
Scott Leese:
a place to which I can return internally
Scott Leese:
- Scott Leese: Mm-hmm.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: When things are hard, that's always there and
Scott Leese:
is reliant on nothing external.
Scott Leese:
And I think because of that knowledge and what I got there, I just, I'm
Scott Leese:
like a proselytizer for it, right?
Scott Leese:
I want everyone else to have that.
Scott Leese:
And when I was picking my specialty, I though, what is
Scott Leese:
really the foundation of health?
Scott Leese:
If you have your mental health, even if your physical health is failing,
Scott Leese:
you can reach enormous heights.
Scott Leese:
but people without their mental health, even if their physical health
Scott Leese:
is there, aren't able to do that.
Scott Leese:
So I think for me, it just made me realize, this is how I can
Scott Leese:
most contribute to people's health and happiness in the world.
Mike Lindstrom:
I had a friend of mine who's a therapist, and semi-joking.
Mike Lindstrom:
He says, "Mike, you're Catholic.
Mike Lindstrom:
you know the rule.
Mike Lindstrom:
In your world, everyone's a sinner.
Mike Lindstrom:
In the world of therapy, everyone's broken." He goes,
Mike Lindstrom:
"And you do personal coaching.
Mike Lindstrom:
You know that." And I'm like, I don't know if I believe it the way you believe
Mike Lindstrom:
it, but I understand your point is that everyone has a story. Everyone
Mike Lindstrom:
has something that happened to them at five and 12 in those ages that were"
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
"…impressionable." What's your take on that?
Mike Lindstrom:
When you take in a client and they seemingly have it all, they're married,
Mike Lindstrom:
they're balanced, they got kids.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
But they're coming to you.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
There's a presumption there.
Mike Lindstrom:
Like, okay, if everything's great, why are you sitting here?
Mike Lindstrom:
What's your presumption Mm-hmm.
Mike Lindstrom:
Or do you even believe that?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Do I even believe that the people are
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: All people are broken.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I think all people have growth
Mike Lindstrom:
potential is what I would say.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I actually love working with people who come to me and maybe don't have one of
Mike Lindstrom:
the DSM-5, classic psychiatric diagnoses.
Mike Lindstrom:
But they just know that they could be doing more in life, you know?
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And that's why I love my model of working with people,
Mike Lindstrom:
because the healing, the psychological piece is in a larger context.
Mike Lindstrom:
So the way I see it, our childhood traumas, our limiting beliefs, this
Mike Lindstrom:
is the lens through which we're seeing our future and the world.
Mike Lindstrom:
And if your lens is colored by all of that, you might think, "These
Mike Lindstrom:
are my values, this is where I wanna go." But it might be low self-worth.
Mike Lindstrom:
It might be past conditioning that's driving you.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I help people really understand, "What is that lens through
Mike Lindstrom:
which I'm seeing the world?
Mike Lindstrom:
How can I help heal it and integrate those parts of me to where when I'm
Mike Lindstrom:
going forward, when I'm trying to construct my values in my life, it's
Mike Lindstrom:
really in alignment with my actual soul's purpose, who I really am.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I have an awareness of when things are coming out that are more from a
Mike Lindstrom:
limiting belief or a trauma." Does that kind of answer your question?
Mike Lindstrom:
It does.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Okay.
Mike Lindstrom:
It does.
Mike Lindstrom:
I don't take that belief, in and of itself.
Mike Lindstrom:
I do understand the point that we all have
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
…stuff.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Or we all have life experiences.
Mike Lindstrom:
You have a life experience that affected you one way or the other and it shapes
Mike Lindstrom:
your belief system, limiting or not, which affects behavior and results.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I was just curious, like, how you reconcile traditional - and the MD
Mike Lindstrom:
approach with, I'm gonna say it's Eastern Western versus Western medicine, but in
Mike Lindstrom:
that same regard, I have friends that come over and say, "Oh, but Western medicine
Mike Lindstrom:
doesn't even get it. You gotta understand the way we do it in India or where some
Mike Lindstrom:
of my friends practice yoga. They're just two different fighting philosophies."
Mike Lindstrom:
Do you think it's fighting philosophies?
Mike Lindstrom:
Or do you think it's like, I figured out how to blend these two things together
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes.
Mike Lindstrom:
And make it unique?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think it all has a place, and I've been there with all of it.
Mike Lindstrom:
My personal exploration was very Eastern, but then I'm very
Mike Lindstrom:
Western trained, obviously.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Like the scientific background.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I think you speak to people where they are, you meet them where they are.
Mike Lindstrom:
I speak all the languages, really.
Mike Lindstrom:
So if somebody comes in and they're talking about vibrations and energies
Mike Lindstrom:
or yoga or mindfulness, we go there.
Mike Lindstrom:
If somebody comes in and they say, "This is where I am now. I think that I'm ready
Mike Lindstrom:
for medication, and I think that's what's gonna help me." We maybe talk about other
Mike Lindstrom:
options, but they're, that's where we go.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think it's akin to the idea that, everything is fingers
Mike Lindstrom:
pointing to the moon, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
It's, nothing is truth.
Mike Lindstrom:
Nothing is 100% right or wrong.
Mike Lindstrom:
It's all avenues to get where we're trying to go.
Mike Lindstrom:
And anytime you can meet somebody where they are, like, that's
Mike Lindstrom:
where, the healing's gonna go.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
What's the last thing that you discovered in
Scott Leese:
your research that surprised you?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
So dialing it back to kinda the PhD years?
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
I guess you, you could've learned it yesterday for all I know, but
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Oh, like in.
Scott Leese:
Oh, I thought you meant, like, my personal research.
Scott Leese:
No, no, no,
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Um,
Scott Leese:
No.
Scott Leese:
You know, you've dove deep into all these different
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
I don't know the right phrase, mediums or whatever, but, in
Scott Leese:
meditation or something like that.
Scott Leese:
what's something that you discovered
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
That was like, wow, I didn't, I wasn't expecting that,
Scott Leese:
or didn't think that would be the case, and it actually is true and
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Benefits people and stuff.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: So many ways to take that.
Scott Leese:
You know, I think one of my favorite things right now to work with people on
Scott Leese:
is… so oftentimes when people sit down to meditate, there's a resistance to it.
Scott Leese:
They oftentimes say, "I can't quiet my mind, or I don't
Scott Leese:
feel anything, or I don't-"
Scott Leese:
I have a resistance to it.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
So I'm the perfect subject for that.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: [laughing] Okay.
Scott Leese:
Awesome.
Scott Leese:
Great.
Scott Leese:
So I'm that person.
Scott Leese:
It's very hard for me.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Great.
Mike Lindstrom:
Great.
Mike Lindstrom:
So actually what I started focusing with people on and myself is, so
Mike Lindstrom:
instead of trying to just create an just observe things as they come,
Mike Lindstrom:
instead foster a feeling of warmth and compassion within your heart center.
Mike Lindstrom:
It's kinda like loving kindness meditation.
Mike Lindstrom:
but really have people focus on, just somebody that they love really
Mike Lindstrom:
deeply, and then start to feel it.
Mike Lindstrom:
A lot of times, people will feel it in their heart center, this growing feeling
Mike Lindstrom:
of warmth and compassion and love.
Mike Lindstrom:
And then as that grows, just starting to sit with it.
Mike Lindstrom:
And then notice if feelings of discomfort are arising, and if you can
Mike Lindstrom:
meet that discomfort from that place of compassion and love internally.
Mike Lindstrom:
And then people, I'll help them learn to do that in their daily life if
Mike Lindstrom:
they get thrown off center or if, things that are uncomfortable arise.
Mike Lindstrom:
I did it before coming in here, which is growing that feeling in
Mike Lindstrom:
my own heart center, feeling it sinking into it, anchoring into it.
Mike Lindstrom:
And then creating that internal place I could return, even if
Mike Lindstrom:
I started getting anxious here
Mike Lindstrom:
- Scott Leese: Mmm-hmm
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: …in this situation.
Scott Leese:
Yeah,
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
What are some of the things you think people struggle
Mike Lindstrom:
with the most in this day and age?
Mike Lindstrom:
I mean, we have all these influences, social media, politics, divisiveness.
Mike Lindstrom:
We just read a study the other day about estrangement in the family.
Mike Lindstrom:
Like, there's more estrangement in families than ever because
Mike Lindstrom:
of all these five reasons.
Mike Lindstrom:
Politics, social media, et cetera, et cetera.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
And it's the, the facts are, it's a study
Mike Lindstrom:
and it looks pretty legit.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
I have it in my own family.
Mike Lindstrom:
So what do you think that some of these things are influenced?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
again, there's so many things.
Mike Lindstrom:
isolation, of course, both physically and emotionally.
Mike Lindstrom:
And this comes down to a lot of things I've studied, but, this feeling
Mike Lindstrom:
that we're all actually connected.
Mike Lindstrom:
The reason why we sat next to each other on the airplane and you could
Mike Lindstrom:
know something about my energy, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
This barrier between us isn't really real.
Mike Lindstrom:
And so I think we've gotten away from that understanding
Mike Lindstrom:
that we're all parts of a whole.
Mike Lindstrom:
We can all relate to each other, engage with each other.
Mike Lindstrom:
And the actual point is that engagement and, love and connection.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think we're all about divisiveness and fighting fire with fire and then
Mike Lindstrom:
becoming the thing that we hate.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I think where we really, can move on from that is when we remember
Mike Lindstrom:
that connection, and love and togetherness is actually the point.
Mike Lindstrom:
What are some of the, craziest techniques you, you've given
Mike Lindstrom:
to people coming out of a session?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I don't know that any of them are particularly crazy.
Mike Lindstrom:
A lot of them, as in most things, the things that are the wisest and
Mike Lindstrom:
the best are often the simplest.
Mike Lindstrom:
So creating awareness.
Mike Lindstrom:
A lot of times I'll say over the next week or the next day even,
Mike Lindstrom:
really notice what your mind's doing.
Mike Lindstrom:
Write it down.
Mike Lindstrom:
What is your mind telling you at all these different aspects of the day?
Mike Lindstrom:
Is it telling you things that are bringing you up?
Mike Lindstrom:
Or is it telling you, "Oh, I'm bad.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm worthless.
Mike Lindstrom:
I can't believe I did that.
Mike Lindstrom:
I did this wrong.
Mike Lindstrom:
The end did this wrong." Create an actual catalog and then do this technique
Mike Lindstrom:
oftentimes of grounding within your heart center and observing and just bringing
Mike Lindstrom:
compassion to this part of yourself, to this aspect of your mind that's going on.
Mike Lindstrom:
Because so often people resist it.
Mike Lindstrom:
They try to ignore it, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
And then it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger and consuming.
Mike Lindstrom:
And so we're bringing this soft light of compassionate awareness to
Mike Lindstrom:
it, which feels counterintuitive.
Mike Lindstrom:
People think, "Well, then it's gonna overwhelm me." But really, it's the idea
Mike Lindstrom:
that if you're pushing something away, it's gonna beat down your door to get in.
Mike Lindstrom:
But if you invite it in for tea, you're gonna actually get
Mike Lindstrom:
the information and be able to
Mike Lindstrom:
- Scott Leese: Invite that in for tea.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
I love that.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm ripping that one off.
Mike Lindstrom:
That's a
Scott Leese:
good phrase.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Actually, that's something that I tell people a lot.
Scott Leese:
I'll say invite that in for tea this week.
Mike Lindstrom:
Um,
Mike Lindstrom:
I got it.
Scott Leese:
I imagine you have to become an expert at this because
Scott Leese:
so much of the work in talking with patients is hearing about their pain.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
And I remember when I was an undergrad, I have a
Scott Leese:
psychology undergrad degree, and I remember one of the professors told
Scott Leese:
me that, I might wanna pursue this because I was good at listening to
Scott Leese:
people and everything like that.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
I remember telling her, "I don't wanna listen to people's problems all day long."
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
"I don't wanna absorb their pain. I don't wanna be around
Scott Leese:
all that kind of negativity." You have to equip yourself, I imagine,
Scott Leese:
with the ability to recenter yourself, ground yourself, protect yourself
Scott Leese:
from absorbing everybody else's pain.
Scott Leese:
That's gotta be hard.
Scott Leese:
It's gotta be part of the journey
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Uh-huh.
Scott Leese:
Of becoming really good at what you do, right?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah, especially since becoming a parent, actually.
Scott Leese:
Mm.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: It definitely has gotten harder.
Scott Leese:
It's like the, the pores of my energy are just more open or something.
Scott Leese:
Mm.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: But, what I really try to remind myself
Scott Leese:
always is by being grounded in my own energy, I'm helping them.
Scott Leese:
If I'm being just sunken down and absorbed in this, and devastated by it, that's not
Scott Leese:
gonna help them in this moment, right?
Scott Leese:
And of course, I'm human, and I have feelings, and I tear up with patients.
Scott Leese:
I have some.
Scott Leese:
Usually, I mean, not sobbing, but I'll have tears with patients,
Scott Leese:
weekly, sometimes daily.
Scott Leese:
- Scott Leese: Just feeling it with them.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Just, sitting, really bearing witness to what they went through.
Scott Leese:
But something about it, I am so locked into my own center when this is
Scott Leese:
happening, that it's almost like I can feel it, and then it moves through.
Scott Leese:
I feel it.
Scott Leese:
It's like I'm an open valve, I'm not closed off to what they're
Scott Leese:
- Scott Leese: Uh-huh.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: …experiencing, but I don't hold it in.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: So it comes in and moves out,
Scott Leese:
and I do a lot of practices.
Scott Leese:
If it's been a really difficult day, there's a lot of meditation, yoga, baths
Scott Leese:
happening at the end of the day, dancing.
Scott Leese:
I have a dance background, so that's something that I would
Scott Leese:
do to kind of move it through.
Scott Leese:
Most of the time, I notice that I'm okay with it, but after heavier
Scott Leese:
days, I do usually have to do something like that to help it not
Scott Leese:
influence, the rest of my life.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
What about influences?
Mike Lindstrom:
Mentors, someone in your
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
It could be a parent, it could be someone in your education
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
That was a big influence on you.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Who might that be?
Mike Lindstrom:
And what was the big thing that you learned from that person?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I'm so glad you asked me this question.
Mike Lindstrom:
so it's actually my closest friend in the world who I'm
Mike Lindstrom:
starting a podcast with, actually.
Mike Lindstrom:
Her name's Brielle Paolini, and it was the beginning of the MD / PhD.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I remember I was maybe a first or second year in it, and we were
Mike Lindstrom:
at lunch, and I said, "Brielle, I'm just, I feel like something's missing
Mike Lindstrom:
in life. I don't know what it is. I was raised Catholic, and I got these
Mike Lindstrom:
influences that I relate to, but I just feel like there's something missing."
Mike Lindstrom:
And she said, "Okay, Adrienne, read this book by Richie Davidson."
Mike Lindstrom:
It was about the neuroscience of mindfulness meditation that I ended
Mike Lindstrom:
up researching, and a John Kabat-Zinn book about meditation and mindfulness.
Mike Lindstrom:
That was the opening that I needed.
Mike Lindstrom:
That was the rest of my life, I can trace back to that moment.
Mike Lindstrom:
All of the books that I've read, the places I went, the research, the internal
Mike Lindstrom:
places, and our lives have been so connected serendipitously ever since.
Mike Lindstrom:
She introduced me to my husband.
Mike Lindstrom:
We're absolute best friends, even though she's across the country.
Mike Lindstrom:
We're starting a podcast that talks about all of this.
Mike Lindstrom:
She's a radiologist, but she has a background in coaching and all of
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Very interesting things.
Mike Lindstrom:
and now we're gonna start this podcast talking about therapy, spirituality,
Mike Lindstrom:
coaching, all merged together.
Mike Lindstrom:
even though she's peer and a colleague, we joke that we've probably gone
Mike Lindstrom:
back and forth in many potential lifetimes being each other's,
Mike Lindstrom:
guides and mentors and friends and
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah, so one of the most serendipitous
Mike Lindstrom:
you tied all, everything back to this person.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes.
Mike Lindstrom:
And
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: That's huge.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And then, she was deciding which residency to go to.
Mike Lindstrom:
We submit a rank list, and then it spits out where you're going.
Mike Lindstrom:
[laughing] But she had her rank list differently, and she called me
Mike Lindstrom:
and said, "Adrienne, I don't know.
Mike Lindstrom:
I don't know.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm not sure where I'm supposed to go for residency." I said,
Mike Lindstrom:
"Brielle, you gotta sit down.
Mike Lindstrom:
You gotta do a 10-minute meditation where you envision yourself at each one
Mike Lindstrom:
of these places that you're debating.
Mike Lindstrom:
that will tell you where you need to go."
Mike Lindstrom:
And she called me back and said, "Oh my gosh, I couldn't even sit at
Mike Lindstrom:
all in the one that was my number one. And I realized I needed to go
Mike Lindstrom:
to MUSC in Charleston," where she then met her husband and her whole
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: Crazy, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: …life is, and her two children, and yeah, yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
where does mommyhood come into all this?
Mike Lindstrom:
'Cause that's
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Talk about, to Scott's point, you have to be able
Mike Lindstrom:
to separate things a little bit.
Mike Lindstrom:
And then you might have a rough day.
Mike Lindstrom:
And then, as I know, from having two teenagers now, when I might do my
Mike Lindstrom:
business coaching, and I'm talking about things that are not deep like yours.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm talking about business decisions, money, contracts, doing deals, lawyers,
Mike Lindstrom:
and stuff like that, where you're talking about real life stuff and more than I am.
Mike Lindstrom:
Then you come home.
Mike Lindstrom:
Your three-year-old.
Mike Lindstrom:
I remember when Rhett was three, he's, "I can't wait to see daddy."
Mike Lindstrom:
And I used to have a rule, I'd always take calls outside
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Get off the phone before I walked in, so I could greet
Mike Lindstrom:
him with his three-year-old energy, and I still do that to this day.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
How do you do that?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: It's so hard.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I mostly work from home.
Mike Lindstrom:
So now she's in school, but before, I would just walk down the stairs.
Mike Lindstrom:
The nanny would leave, and it was now I'm mom, and it's been really difficult.
Mike Lindstrom:
It's probably something I'm still working through.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think I try my best to just leave all the work stuff upstairs
Mike Lindstrom:
and just be as present as I can.
Mike Lindstrom:
But kids are little mirrors, so you notice, you're just a little
Mike Lindstrom:
more on edge and it's, okay, this thing just happened with this
Mike Lindstrom:
patient that I'm working through.
Mike Lindstrom:
but what's so cool about them being mirrors is they really show you
Mike Lindstrom:
when you need a minute, you know?
Mike Lindstrom:
[laughing]
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And to step away.
Mike Lindstrom:
and I'm really lucky to have a husband who also sees that and
Mike Lindstrom:
will immediately be able to step in and help give me a little space,
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: But I think that's, the beauty of life.
Mike Lindstrom:
We all have all these different roles that we have to switch in and out of.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Telehealth has to have completely changed your
Scott Leese:
- Mike Lindstrom: Oh, yeah.
Scott Leese:
Your business and your practice.
Scott Leese:
Are you a firm believer that it's equally as effective as in person?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I think it depends on many factors.
Scott Leese:
I think most of the time, I've done both for so long that I see it be
Scott Leese:
very effective for people if they're in the right mental space for it.
Scott Leese:
For me, it becomes like a vortex where it's kinda like they're
Scott Leese:
almost there in the room with me.
Scott Leese:
Like, I'm so in that space with them.
Scott Leese:
I think for some people, if they're distracted by a lot of things going on,
Scott Leese:
or they don't feel totally safe in that space with you because maybe they're in
Scott Leese:
their home, it might be less effective.
Scott Leese:
And I think there's certainly people who need in-person.
Scott Leese:
but I think there's so many people who do just as well with both.
Scott Leese:
I'm trying to think about this in
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
…in my world, it's like a discovery question.
Scott Leese:
So I'm meeting with somebody for the first time.
Scott Leese:
How are you trying to ascertain whether or not this person needs in-person versus
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Telehealth would be good for them or not?
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
what's your question process to figure that out?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
level of acuity, for sure.
Scott Leese:
So if someone's coming into me, and there's been recent hospitalizations
Scott Leese:
or very serious mental illness, SMI as we call it, then I usually say you
Scott Leese:
need to find somebody who's in-person.
Scott Leese:
I have in-person options down here in Scottsdale, actually, so I can
Scott Leese:
do that for people if they need it.
Scott Leese:
But it's also a similar, assessing whether someone needs an academic institution
Scott Leese:
or me, because an academic institution has social workers, group therapy, they
Scott Leese:
have more resources for the person.
Scott Leese:
So usually, if they've had suicide attempts, especially recently,
Scott Leese:
hospitalizations, then I say you probably need to find an academic center,
Scott Leese:
that can have more resources for you.
Mike Lindstrom:
What about addiction?
Mike Lindstrom:
Do you handle addiction?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Sometimes, it's not.
Mike Lindstrom:
I didn't do an addiction fellowship.
Mike Lindstrom:
We did a lot in residency, so to some extent I do it.
Mike Lindstrom:
I have some patients who come to me and then it comes out the addiction,
Mike Lindstrom:
and they're able to be outpatient and work through it, and we do that.
Mike Lindstrom:
But if they're at risk of, severe withdrawals, seizures, delirium
Mike Lindstrom:
tremends, things like that, then they need to be, like, in a
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: In an academic center with more resources.
Mike Lindstrom:
When it comes to.
Mike Lindstrom:
I was curious.
Mike Lindstrom:
We've asked this question of a lot of our clients that have gone through
Mike Lindstrom:
it that are sober the 12 steps.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
what's your take on stuff like that?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I think the more resources, the better.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm always telling people I'm part of the picture for you, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
If they don't wanna see me weekly for therapy, getting a therapist, getting
Mike Lindstrom:
group therapy, getting peer support.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think that's the most important thing I've seen for people going
Mike Lindstrom:
through addiction, is other people, peers who've been through it too.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think the 12 steps is great.
Mike Lindstrom:
We actually, in medical school, I did a lot of work with the 12 steps, and
Mike Lindstrom:
I would go to AA meetings, like, when they would let me as an observer.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think the really cool thing is you are surrendering to a greater power.
Mike Lindstrom:
you're not strong arming your life, and you have other people
Mike Lindstrom:
helping guide you through it.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I think it's, an essential part of the picture.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
What's the biggest piece of advice that you give
Mike Lindstrom:
that you don't take yourself?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Ooh.
Mike Lindstrom:
Hah ha, that's such a good question.
Mike Lindstrom:
We all have them.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Pace yourself.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah, we all have.
Scott Leese:
Pace yourself.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Or, like, take breaks.
Scott Leese:
This, my husband got on me the other night about this.
Scott Leese:
I drop my kid at school at 9:00, and then oftentimes I see
patients 9 00:24:41
30 to 2:30, no breaks.
patients 9 00:24:44
And then I run out the door and get her by three.
patients 9 00:24:46
And he looked at me and he was like, "Why don't you take your
patients 9 00:24:48
own advice and, schedule yourself some time to, like, eat a lunch,
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Sound familiar?
Scott Leese:
It's relatable.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
That's how we shoot the podcast.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Right.
Mike Lindstrom:
Shoveling food in between.
Mike Lindstrom:
We need to take your advice as well.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Is there conventional wisdom about psychiatry that, the pop culture
Scott Leese:
has got totally wrong or totally right?
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: huh.
Scott Leese:
Let me think.
Scott Leese:
What does pop culture usually say about.
Scott Leese:
I think that we push medications or, that medications are unsafe or
Scott Leese:
that medications are bad or that kind of rhetoric you hear sometimes.
Scott Leese:
I don't think they're the whole picture.
Scott Leese:
I'm in a functional psychiatry fellowship, so I do a lot of lab
Scott Leese:
testing, a lot of looking at gut microbiome, all the other things.
Scott Leese:
But I think medications still have a place.
Scott Leese:
Even you can't throw the baby out with bath water.
Scott Leese:
Just because you do other things, medications can still really be a
Scott Leese:
part of helping people live better.
Mike Lindstrom:
Mm-hmm.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And I see it every day.
Mike Lindstrom:
People will say, "Gosh, I started on the medication.
Mike Lindstrom:
Now I'm able to engage in therapy better.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I'm actually making changes in my life because my anxiety
Mike Lindstrom:
isn't at an 11 all day every day."
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And that's the best use of it to
Mike Lindstrom:
help you engage in your life
Mike Lindstrom:
- Scott Leese: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: More meaningfully.
Scott Leese:
I find it strange though, when I'm, like, watching
Scott Leese:
the Super Bowl or something and
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
And there Is a anxiety medication commercial?"
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
It's half the commercials are, like, from
Scott Leese:
big pharma all of a sudden now.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Every
Mike Lindstrom:
- Scott Leese: It's like, "What?
Mike Lindstrom:
I was watching
Mike Lindstrom:
- Scott Leese: What happened?
Mike Lindstrom:
When did this happen?
Mike Lindstrom:
…we actually counted.
Mike Lindstrom:
We went back and watched 60% of the ads for one show the other night.
Mike Lindstrom:
I can't remember which one,
Mike Lindstrom:
it was primetime, were pharmaceuticals.
Mike Lindstrom:
so the consumers, to everyone's point here is they're getting beat with.
Mike Lindstrom:
Well, I don't care what it is.
Mike Lindstrom:
It could be something with your skin, it could be something with your stomach,
Mike Lindstrom:
it could be something with your mind.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
The pharmaceutical companies have gotten smart
Mike Lindstrom:
and say, "Hey, we're just gonna go straight to the consumer
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
To get you to go to your doctor and say, Hey, what about this?"
Mike Lindstrom:
- And
Scott Leese:
that gives off the impression that the doctors
Scott Leese:
are like, "Here, take this and
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Call me in the morning."
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
And I think it's not a quick fix.
Scott Leese:
That is what I work with people so much on is we're really looking
Scott Leese:
at, your psychological, your biological, your spiritual health.
Scott Leese:
And medications might be a part of that, but they're not a way to
Scott Leese:
bypass the rest of the work, right?
Scott Leese:
If we're using them, we also need to be looking at everything
Scott Leese:
else going on in the picture.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And I think so often the thing that people
Mike Lindstrom:
are getting right is that, maybe some doctors, people are looking
Mike Lindstrom:
for this to be the answer, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
And to me, that gets at our culture of "the answer is outside of me."
Mike Lindstrom:
"Let me get this medication, this doctor, this modality, this spiritual
Mike Lindstrom:
practice, all these things, and then I'll be fine and whole," when really,
Mike Lindstrom:
nothing external is the answer.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Fix everything except the thing that matters.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Right,
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
That's powerful.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Right, except sit in silence.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
[laughing]
Mike Lindstrom:
One of my good friends is an anesthesiologist.
Mike Lindstrom:
He was for years and years in Orange County, Dr. David Tahimi, and he opened up
Mike Lindstrom:
addiction centers to help people overcome.
Mike Lindstrom:
And they have medicines obviously that help addicts.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm talking about severe heroin
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
That stuff, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
So they live in there for a period of time.
Mike Lindstrom:
And he explained it to me in his view, and I want your take on this.
Mike Lindstrom:
He's like, "Think about somebody comes into my facility, they're
Mike Lindstrom:
at a negative 10." you talk about your zero to 10 scale, Mike.
Mike Lindstrom:
They're at a negative 10.
Mike Lindstrom:
I gotta medicate them for the addiction to get them to even to a zero."
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
"They can't even function, understand, do anything before I can even
Mike Lindstrom:
start setting level 10s type stuff. They can't see. They don't see future goals,
Mike Lindstrom:
passion, all that stuff you teach."
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
"I gotta get them to a level. And once I get them
Mike Lindstrom:
to level, then step by step…"
Mike Lindstrom:
And that's where a person like you comes in.
Mike Lindstrom:
So when it comes to medication, how do you draw that line?
Mike Lindstrom:
Because you can go meditation, you can go herbal supplements, you can
Mike Lindstrom:
say, "Well, I can go straight to the meds." So on this scale, what,
Mike Lindstrom:
where are people coming into you?
Mike Lindstrom:
How do you figure out where they are on that scale?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
And what's gonna be the solve for that?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm just curious.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Mm-hmm.
Mike Lindstrom:
I love this question.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I think a lot of times for me, the answer is intuition, which is
Mike Lindstrom:
based on both my gut feeling, but my experience over the so many years.
Mike Lindstrom:
So if somebody comes into me and they are trembling and they're hypervigilant
Mike Lindstrom:
and they have all these trauma symptoms, the word that keeps coming up, stabilize.
Mike Lindstrom:
Like stabilization, I think it's what your friend is talking about too.
Mike Lindstrom:
Get to zero.
Mike Lindstrom:
Get to level.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Get to where you can actually think, Because if you can't think
Mike Lindstrom:
or talk or nothing in your life is making sense, we have to get all
Mike Lindstrom:
of those things on board first.
Mike Lindstrom:
And that includes external factors too.
Mike Lindstrom:
If you need external support, are you safe?
Mike Lindstrom:
Are you fed?
Mike Lindstrom:
Are you sheltered?
Mike Lindstrom:
Is your nervous system at least regulated enough to be able to
Mike Lindstrom:
talk to me about some of this?
Mike Lindstrom:
And I think that's where medications are so, so needed.
Mike Lindstrom:
And then you keep working with people, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
You meet them where they are.
Mike Lindstrom:
Where are we today?
Mike Lindstrom:
Every time I see them, what does it feel like we can get into?
Mike Lindstrom:
And I have one patient who I'll often see for an hour and a half where we
Mike Lindstrom:
really maybe I spend 30 minutes or so getting, figuring out where we are that
Mike Lindstrom:
day and where we can get to with them safely, because I don't wanna leave them
Mike Lindstrom:
destabilized at the end of it, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
I don't wanna go to a place that their system is absolutely not able to go to.
Mike Lindstrom:
And then, "All right, that's the time."
Scott Leese:
"Time's up!"
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: You know, "Time's up." Right.
Scott Leese:
So it's this dance with the person of where are we today?
Scott Leese:
Where can we get to?
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
What are three tips that you give somebody?
Mike Lindstrom:
Let's model what great people have done.
Mike Lindstrom:
You're in a great position to teach some of these things.
Mike Lindstrom:
What would be three good things, exercises, everyday
Mike Lindstrom:
practices that anybody can do
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
That would keep people in a good space.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: figure out what's important to you
Mike Lindstrom:
and really important to you.
Mike Lindstrom:
Not maybe the first thing that comes to mind, but figure out
Mike Lindstrom:
really who you are at your core.
Mike Lindstrom:
So some journaling, talking with people who know you really
Mike Lindstrom:
well, what are your values?
Mike Lindstrom:
What do you really wanna do in this life?
Mike Lindstrom:
And start to make a life that feels good to you that's doing
Mike Lindstrom:
these things that you want to do.
Mike Lindstrom:
Create a mission statement for yourself that you read every morning.
Mike Lindstrom:
and spend time grounding every day in your view of what's happening in this world.
Mike Lindstrom:
So it can be spiritual, secular, religious, philosophical.
Mike Lindstrom:
What do you think is happening in this world?
Mike Lindstrom:
Ground in that daily, whether it's meditation or yoga or a bath or
Mike Lindstrom:
a walk or sit, whatever it is.
Mike Lindstrom:
and then work.
Mike Lindstrom:
Take little baby steps to make your life look the way that's
Mike Lindstrom:
in alignment with your values.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I think the reason that's maybe not a quick fix or
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Three little steps, is because, I don't think
Mike Lindstrom:
we feel good until we're really living a life that's in alignment
Mike Lindstrom:
with our soul's purpose and values.
Mike Lindstrom:
Mm-hmm.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I often see people who, like I said, maybe they
Mike Lindstrom:
don't have a psychiatric diagnosis, but they just know something's a little out
Mike Lindstrom:
of whack, and they actually wanna see me before they would need to see me.
Mike Lindstrom:
Right?
Mike Lindstrom:
Pre-emptive strike?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: [laughing] Right.
Mike Lindstrom:
Exactly.
Mike Lindstrom:
Okay.
Mike Lindstrom:
I believe this, and I do the best I can to give people hope in my practice, but
Mike Lindstrom:
I don't think most people ever find it.
Mike Lindstrom:
If you took
Mike Lindstrom:
- Scott Leese: No.
Mike Lindstrom:
…the average American
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: No.
Mike Lindstrom:
…just for example, and you just went and interviewed
Mike Lindstrom:
them all and said, "Is this what you were put on this planet to do?
Mike Lindstrom:
Are you passionate about what you do?" But it's only the people that we hear about.
Mike Lindstrom:
It's the Taylor Swifts.
Mike Lindstrom:
You like that woman was put on this planet to do exactly what she does.
Mike Lindstrom:
Beethoven was put on this planet to do what he did.
Mike Lindstrom:
Michael Jordan was put on this planet.
Mike Lindstrom:
Tiger Woods.
Mike Lindstrom:
Whether you like these people or not, it's clear as day.
Mike Lindstrom:
They have a skill, a passion, and they found it
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
…in their life, and they're doing it.
Mike Lindstrom:
Not that they don't have issues, but the most people look at this now
Mike Lindstrom:
with social media, it's gotten worse.
Mike Lindstrom:
But that's what they see.
Mike Lindstrom:
So then they're like, "Well, I'm not, I don't have that." Or even that person
Mike Lindstrom:
I went to college with, "Wow, look at their great life." And they look at
Mike Lindstrom:
themself and go, "Well, I don't have that.
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm not doing it."
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I think social media has influenced that a
Mike Lindstrom:
lot and not in a positive way.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
How do you reconcile that?
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: let me back up and speak to what you
Mike Lindstrom:
were saying a second before.
Mike Lindstrom:
I think, we all have versions of what we're here to do.
Mike Lindstrom:
So for me, for example, in this lifetime, I'm a healer archetype.
Mike Lindstrom:
That is always what I've wanted to do.
Mike Lindstrom:
That's always been something that's meshed really well with me.
Mike Lindstrom:
I could have taken it many different directions, right?
Mike Lindstrom:
And I think still feel fulfilled and, like, I'm doing what I'm here to do.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I think sometimes people feel paralyzed by this idea that there's one
Mike Lindstrom:
thing I could do and I could miss it.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I don't think that's true.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I wanted to at least clarify that.
Mike Lindstrom:
But social media, I was at a really interesting age because, Instagram
Mike Lindstrom:
came out after I finished college.
Mike Lindstrom:
Facebook was a thing, right when I was in college, So I got to grow up without
Mike Lindstrom:
it, the one computer household, and then see how it's evolved and changed,
Mike Lindstrom:
the generation, I guess, below me.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I think it's just created these unreal expectations for what we're supposed
Mike Lindstrom:
to be in our lives, and the comparison.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I think anything we can do to stay off of it and limit it, which is something
Mike Lindstrom:
I have such, like, conflicting thing with, I'm not good at social media.
Mike Lindstrom:
I've never been good at marketing myself, per se.
Mike Lindstrom:
Because I don't like that energy and I don't like feeling controlled by
Mike Lindstrom:
this thing on my phone that, that's,
Scott Leese:
And yet, it's one of the best ways to grow your business
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Right, right, right.
Scott Leese:
In your practice.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Right, right.
Scott Leese:
Right.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: And so there's this love-hate with it.
Scott Leese:
I think, especially when you're a kid though, when your brain is developing,
Scott Leese:
I had the privilege of my brain didn't develop with this point of comparison.
Scott Leese:
I think as much as we can do, speaking as a parent, to keep our kids away from this
Scott Leese:
and actually living a life that's present, engaged with other people, and have our
Scott Leese:
brains reward circuitry be programmed for things that are really valuable, as
Scott Leese:
much as we can help children do that, I think that's the change that we can make.
Scott Leese:
We can't change everybody,
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: But that's I think as, as much
Mike Lindstrom:
as we can stay off of it.
Mike Lindstrom:
[laughing]
Mike Lindstrom:
It's tough.
Mike Lindstrom:
We love it and we hate it.
Mike Lindstrom:
Mr. Algo.
Scott Leese:
Can't live with, can't live without it.
Mike Lindstrom:
Chasing it.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Right.
Mike Lindstrom:
Chasing it.
Mike Lindstrom:
All right, so as we wrap up, we like to give some final, we'll call
Mike Lindstrom:
them rapid fires, but one question we like to ask people is, quotes.
Mike Lindstrom:
we'll call them "Adrienneisms".
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Oh.
Mike Lindstrom:
These are quotes that either you live by or something that
Mike Lindstrom:
a spouse could be, like, if I asked any of your patients are like, "Oh,
Mike Lindstrom:
she's always preaching that quote. That's something she lives by."
Mike Lindstrom:
What are some of the Adrienneisms?
Mike Lindstrom:
I'm gonna call them.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I wouldn't have thought of this one before
Mike Lindstrom:
our conversation, but "Invite it in for tea" is DEFINITELY one.
Mike Lindstrom:
That's,
Mike Lindstrom:
that's- That's, we're giving you trademark on that one.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Oh yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
That's hers.
Scott Leese:
That's a good one.
Mike Lindstrom:
That's for sure.
Scott Leese:
You need to keep using that one.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: But yeah, yeah, that's definitely.
Scott Leese:
I don't say this, but what's in the background really is, "Find your purpose,
Scott Leese:
live your purpose." That's kind of what I'm always thinking about for myself and
Scott Leese:
for other people, but it's definitely not something I say all the time.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
I don't know that I say a lot of other things, for sure.
Mike Lindstrom:
Quirky habits or things you do outside of work that you would
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Oh.
Mike Lindstrom:
People would be amazed to know.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Oh.
Mike Lindstrom:
I don't know about quirky habits, but
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: Or hobbies.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Oh, hobbies, yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
So early in the summer, I started getting into herbalism, and I was making this
Mike Lindstrom:
little, like, potions for my family
Scott Leese:
By the way, that's quirky.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: [laughing] What, herbalism?
Scott Leese:
Herbalisms.
Scott Leese:
Yes, that's quirky.
Mike Lindstrom:
That's good.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Maybe not in my world.
Mike Lindstrom:
[laughing] I'm like, this seems
Mike Lindstrom:
- Mike Lindstrom: It's normal.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Seems legitimate, you know?
Scott Leese:
It's a little quirky.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Like make potions that sit in here.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Nobody does that.
Scott Leese:
So I was fixing my husband's allergies up in Flagstaff this
Scott Leese:
summer with my little potions.
Scott Leese:
and then in the last couple months, I picked up golf.
Scott Leese:
My husband is a huge golfer, and I started actually trying to have some fun.
Scott Leese:
And
Scott Leese:
- Mike Lindstrom: Cool.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: I've been, like, a really intense person, obviously.
Scott Leese:
And I would, if the nanny was still there, we didn't have a patient,
Scott Leese:
I'd go out and try to play golf, and I'm really bad at it, but there's
Scott Leese:
something still humbling about going out and trying something that you're
Scott Leese:
not really actually naturally good at.
Scott Leese:
The good thing about, golf is that you could
Scott Leese:
play for your whole life and
Scott Leese:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Scott Leese:
…you still feel that way.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: That's what my dad says.
Scott Leese:
He's like, "Welcome to the team."
Mike Lindstrom:
Welcome to the team.
Mike Lindstrom:
[laughing]
Scott Leese:
You never feel good.
Scott Leese:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah, exactly.
Scott Leese:
You never get better.
Mike Lindstrom:
It could be a, new resident doctor coming in
Mike Lindstrom:
every so often for the show.
Scott Leese:
True.
Mike Lindstrom:
maybe for you and I. I mean, you and I need our own doctor.
Scott Leese:
Nobody needs more than us.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah, it's more than an hour.
Mike Lindstrom:
I wanna say thank you so much.
Mike Lindstrom:
You came, a couple hours to come see us today, and you took a chance.
Mike Lindstrom:
I know that there's an accountability level around these day and age.
Mike Lindstrom:
You can Google me, YouTube, and you're like, "Yeah, this guy seems legit. He's
Mike Lindstrom:
not some random guy on an airplane." So I do appreciate you've taken a chance
Mike Lindstrom:
- Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yes.
Mike Lindstrom:
…you didn't really "know me" know me.
Scott Leese:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Most of our guests I've either known or we' had a
Mike Lindstrom:
mutual friend, so you took a chance.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
And I appreciate that.
Mike Lindstrom:
And hopefully you got out of your comfort zone a good way and we can
Mike Lindstrom:
help you in any way to help you with your brand and push yourself
Mike Lindstrom:
out there to, to bring this energy.
Mike Lindstrom:
'Cause I don't meet people that have these many commas
Mike Lindstrom:
after their name in your space.
Mike Lindstrom:
over in financial, they got, series seven and all that stuff, but
Mike Lindstrom:
in this world, you don't see it.
Mike Lindstrom:
And when you see that blend of the breadths that come together, and I see the
Mike Lindstrom:
alignment the way we think, that's why I though you'd be a great guest on the show.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Thank you so much.
Mike Lindstrom:
So I appreciate that.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Of course.
Mike Lindstrom:
My pleasure.
Mike Lindstrom:
Yeah.
Mike Lindstrom:
Thank you for coming on.
Mike Lindstrom:
Dr. Adrienne Adler-Neal: Thank you.
Scott Leese:
Thanks everybody for joining us on another episode of
Scott Leese:
What's Your Story with Mike and Scott.
Scott Leese:
I'm Scott Leese.
Scott Leese:
This is my good friend, Mike Lindstrom.
Scott Leese:
Thanks to our guest for joining us today.
Scott Leese:
Make sure you follow them on all the social platforms.
Scott Leese:
Make sure you follow us on all the social platforms as well.
Scott Leese:
And check out whatsourstorypod.com for future episodes, past episodes,
Scott Leese:
upcoming events, along with a way to follow our newsletter.
Scott Leese:
Big shout out to our friends at NectarFlow who host us here in studio,
Scott Leese:
and we will see you next time on What's Your Story with Mike and Scott.